Tremendous article! Well done! I don't understand how those "queer theory" people can take themselves seriously or consider themselves "scholars" of any kind, when they are clearly just ideologues who warp and twist and distort historical facts and reality in order to push their agenda and enforce their views. It's insincere and insidious, and in this case laughable as well. I actually laughed out loud when I read the bit about auto-erotic asphyxiation. Seriously, these "scholars" do not even know the meaning of ecstacy in a shamanic/magico-religious context. What else is there to say?
And what about option that similar contested claims over a deity and different groups disparaging other groups that are going on now could be happening back then?
There is that incident where Hialti Skeggjason disparaged both Odin and Freyia as shameful "bitches". By the way, as a Christian convert and not long before Iceland's government accepted christianity.
And archeologically we find that remains of his cult sites are not so evenly distributed (as oppossed to Thor and Freyr) and seem to be connected mostly to elite which existed in connection with berserkers and their full-time war occupation and specialists of knowledge and magic.
I've seen him also interpreted as a God of outsiders, something becoming umbrella for strange and foreign (he seems to be attested in Scandinavia later than in southern Germanic areals) and nonconformist elements the way similarly maimed and wandering Velnias is in Baltics, the way Apollo is an imported deity of all sorts of things?
Could it be possible that in older times Odin would not be considered argr, but in later times he would along with magic as whole becoming more controversial? Or that argr considered people used to turn to him just as those on opposite side of spectrum did and that's what was always commented on? Or just guilt by association with argr entities?
Also, regarding manliness... There is dispute over Odin's name Jalk. I've seen it translated as gelding and as stallion both.
And Samso from your translation of Lokasenna I've seen elsewere interpreted as Sami island. Which would point to association with those people and their techniques.
Speaking of that exchange between Odin and Loki... I've run into comparison to Sinfiötli and Gudmundr. That these two spats are allegorical and quite similarly worded. Except in the second one there is no third party to stop them from hurling more accusations.
When Odin was revealed to have crossdressed, he is banished, but... Who says he is found each time? Where Thor has to be persuaded to make the sacrifice and transgress for th greater good, Odin seems more willing to throw those rules to the wind. As means to end, of course. Seid too being means to end. What other gods have history of being cast out for such misconduct? It might be poignant that it happens to him. Maybe in the sense that this is the amount of sacrifice he makes, maybe in the sense that he embodies willingness to toe the line, to cross the line. That he is claimed also by people who do.
Interesting article and I appreciate you handling it well! I, too, once took offense to the idea that Freya slept with dwarves to get a necklace and took to lecturing everyone on youtube about it. I can see that I might end up in a few battles now that I am here as well since rumors seem to plaguing our mythology again lately.
This is great stuff. I grew up on the old Norse tales, so appreciate the studies of the world view and traditions. Norse is quite close to Old English?
Yes, there are a lot of similarities. Both languages have a common ancestor and at that point in time there was a lot less divergence than there is between their descendant languages. Here’s the sentence “that was a good king” in both languages:
Fascinating article. It has become the common internet trope that Odin is the Shaman King god, and the source comparison you did here was really intriguing for considering otherwise.
"Odin’s association with seid is based entirely upon a single event"
No mention of the Mead of Poetry or other instances of shapeshifting? Merseburg Charms as a form of healing magic? The confusion comes with galdr and seidr having noticeable overlap. Chants, healing, and shapeshifting... and Odin is also simultaneously the "father of galdr". The problem and confusion I have with the article is attempting not to talk about ergi and "queer theory" but the entirety of magic/shaminism/wizardry being distanced with Odin by effectively saying he in not a "shaman god." Sure, the shaman word itself may be Siberian, but it also might not. As Mircea Eliade suggests, the Shaman word to be of Sanskrit origin. This leads down the road of perennialism, but suffice it to say, Odin is a god of magic. His healing, his travels to the underworld... his name itself meaning frenzy or ecstasy.
I like the investigation we take to understand the gods, but at the end of the day, we will never fully comprehend them, because they are gods.
I tried to make it clear near the beginning of the article that seid is just a particularly feminine subset of Norse magic. The reason I didn’t mention shapeshifting is because shapeshifting is not generally portrayed as argr in the sources. The same is true of healing. You are correct that Odin is very strongly associated with magic, but there is only one event in which the magic he uses is portrayed as argr.
With regard to shamanism, my larger point is that there is no reason to believe that Odin functions like a shaman from outside of the Norse culture. This is not meant to distance him from all magic and wizardry, only from non-Norse shamanism specifically. This is an important distinction to make because there is a lot of conjecture floating around that only makes sense if Odin behaves like a Sámi/Siberian shaman.
I agree with you that the Norse gods are not fully comprehensible to us in the modern period, not because they are gods but because our information is limited. The goal is not to fully understand an incomprehensible being but to get as close as we can to an understanding like the pre-Christian believers had. In this case, we are not very well served by accepting any modern interpretation as valid just because gods are not fully comprehensible. We are looking for good evidence that ancient people believed in any particular way.
This is very good and excellently written and insightful. Thanks very much!
I found you through Reddit, and as someone who practices a Norse inspired religion, it was a must-follow.
Tremendous article! Well done! I don't understand how those "queer theory" people can take themselves seriously or consider themselves "scholars" of any kind, when they are clearly just ideologues who warp and twist and distort historical facts and reality in order to push their agenda and enforce their views. It's insincere and insidious, and in this case laughable as well. I actually laughed out loud when I read the bit about auto-erotic asphyxiation. Seriously, these "scholars" do not even know the meaning of ecstacy in a shamanic/magico-religious context. What else is there to say?
And what about option that similar contested claims over a deity and different groups disparaging other groups that are going on now could be happening back then?
There is that incident where Hialti Skeggjason disparaged both Odin and Freyia as shameful "bitches". By the way, as a Christian convert and not long before Iceland's government accepted christianity.
And archeologically we find that remains of his cult sites are not so evenly distributed (as oppossed to Thor and Freyr) and seem to be connected mostly to elite which existed in connection with berserkers and their full-time war occupation and specialists of knowledge and magic.
I've seen him also interpreted as a God of outsiders, something becoming umbrella for strange and foreign (he seems to be attested in Scandinavia later than in southern Germanic areals) and nonconformist elements the way similarly maimed and wandering Velnias is in Baltics, the way Apollo is an imported deity of all sorts of things?
Could it be possible that in older times Odin would not be considered argr, but in later times he would along with magic as whole becoming more controversial? Or that argr considered people used to turn to him just as those on opposite side of spectrum did and that's what was always commented on? Or just guilt by association with argr entities?
Also, regarding manliness... There is dispute over Odin's name Jalk. I've seen it translated as gelding and as stallion both.
And Samso from your translation of Lokasenna I've seen elsewere interpreted as Sami island. Which would point to association with those people and their techniques.
Speaking of that exchange between Odin and Loki... I've run into comparison to Sinfiötli and Gudmundr. That these two spats are allegorical and quite similarly worded. Except in the second one there is no third party to stop them from hurling more accusations.
When Odin was revealed to have crossdressed, he is banished, but... Who says he is found each time? Where Thor has to be persuaded to make the sacrifice and transgress for th greater good, Odin seems more willing to throw those rules to the wind. As means to end, of course. Seid too being means to end. What other gods have history of being cast out for such misconduct? It might be poignant that it happens to him. Maybe in the sense that this is the amount of sacrifice he makes, maybe in the sense that he embodies willingness to toe the line, to cross the line. That he is claimed also by people who do.
Interesting article and I appreciate you handling it well! I, too, once took offense to the idea that Freya slept with dwarves to get a necklace and took to lecturing everyone on youtube about it. I can see that I might end up in a few battles now that I am here as well since rumors seem to plaguing our mythology again lately.
This is great stuff. I grew up on the old Norse tales, so appreciate the studies of the world view and traditions. Norse is quite close to Old English?
Yes, there are a lot of similarities. Both languages have a common ancestor and at that point in time there was a lot less divergence than there is between their descendant languages. Here’s the sentence “that was a good king” in both languages:
Old English - “Þæt wæs gōd cyning”.
Old Norse - “Þat var góðr konungr”.
Fascinating article. It has become the common internet trope that Odin is the Shaman King god, and the source comparison you did here was really intriguing for considering otherwise.
"Odin’s association with seid is based entirely upon a single event"
No mention of the Mead of Poetry or other instances of shapeshifting? Merseburg Charms as a form of healing magic? The confusion comes with galdr and seidr having noticeable overlap. Chants, healing, and shapeshifting... and Odin is also simultaneously the "father of galdr". The problem and confusion I have with the article is attempting not to talk about ergi and "queer theory" but the entirety of magic/shaminism/wizardry being distanced with Odin by effectively saying he in not a "shaman god." Sure, the shaman word itself may be Siberian, but it also might not. As Mircea Eliade suggests, the Shaman word to be of Sanskrit origin. This leads down the road of perennialism, but suffice it to say, Odin is a god of magic. His healing, his travels to the underworld... his name itself meaning frenzy or ecstasy.
I like the investigation we take to understand the gods, but at the end of the day, we will never fully comprehend them, because they are gods.
I tried to make it clear near the beginning of the article that seid is just a particularly feminine subset of Norse magic. The reason I didn’t mention shapeshifting is because shapeshifting is not generally portrayed as argr in the sources. The same is true of healing. You are correct that Odin is very strongly associated with magic, but there is only one event in which the magic he uses is portrayed as argr.
With regard to shamanism, my larger point is that there is no reason to believe that Odin functions like a shaman from outside of the Norse culture. This is not meant to distance him from all magic and wizardry, only from non-Norse shamanism specifically. This is an important distinction to make because there is a lot of conjecture floating around that only makes sense if Odin behaves like a Sámi/Siberian shaman.
I agree with you that the Norse gods are not fully comprehensible to us in the modern period, not because they are gods but because our information is limited. The goal is not to fully understand an incomprehensible being but to get as close as we can to an understanding like the pre-Christian believers had. In this case, we are not very well served by accepting any modern interpretation as valid just because gods are not fully comprehensible. We are looking for good evidence that ancient people believed in any particular way.